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Ethiopian pilot pleaded for training after Lion Air Boeing 737 Max crash

Enviado há
 
Just days after a Lion Air Boeing 737 Max nosedived in Indonesia and killed all 189 people aboard, an Ethiopian Airlines pilot began pleading with his bosses for more training on the Max, warning that crews could easily be overwhelmed in a crisis and that one of their planes could be the next to go down. “We are asking for trouble,” veteran pilot Bernd Kai von Hoesslin wrote in a December email obtained by The Associated Press, adding that if several alarms go off in the cockpit at once, “it… (www.yahoo.com) Mais...

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cgraydon
Charlie Graydon 3
The Question I have is over 350 people dead and no one has lost their job at Boeing the CEO should be gone!
lynx318
lynx318 1
Stalin executed his scientists that failed in the Russian space program, the quality of scientists and the lack of scientists putting themselves forward for the program in genuine fear is why they lost the race to the moon. You can't react in this way sacking the very staff they may be the few needed to fix the issues they're already familiar with.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 2
Yeah...wait till the issues are fixed, and then sack them.
lynx318
lynx318 1
Chuckle, as long as it was the idiots who pushed for the option out of sensor disagreement system.
JimG4170L
Jim Goldfuss 1
just curious...after hearing the pilots plea why do you not hold Ethiopain to a similar standard? Yes, I blame Boeing with how they handled this from the start, but just as in any accident, there is a chain of events - how about Ethiopian disregarding the pilots concerns.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Knee jerk reactions never solve anything and usually wind up making things worse. If every CEO who's company's product killed someone was fired, we'd soon be playing a game of musical CEOs in every industry and exacerbate the problem.
mikehe
Mike Hindson-Evans -1
Obviously not the CEOs of companies such as Browning, Ruger and Smith & Wesson, but in general terms I agree with your premise in your post.

What is the current death toll from "mass" shootings in the USA since 01/01/2019, compared with the number of people killed by Boeing 737 MAX airliners?
Just wondering.....
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 3
Sorry but I do not..not every manufactures product has killed someone, and the premise " If every CEO who's company's product killed someone was fired" Guns were meant to maim or kill, the manufactures knew that when made. In those cases, it is not up to the manufactures to ensure the gun got into proper hands. Boeing, on the other hand, released a product they "overlooked" safeguards on such as 2 or more sensor inputs needed to operate the system or it would not operate etc, selling to an airline who they knew operated primarily out of high/hot airports when they themselves stated "“Larger 737MAX variants cannot be used at what are referred to has ‘high/hot’ airports” An aircraft was not designed to kill people. If it was an unintentional engineering foul-up that no one foresaw, then yes I would agree with both your assessments.
mikehe
Mike Hindson-Evans -1
* updated. I now have the stats; defining a "mass shooting as "four or more people shot"; from 01/Jan/2019 to 01/Jun/2019 inclusive, there were 149 fatalities within the USA. SO, not quite reaching the 159 killed in the Ethiopian crash and short of the 189 wiped out in the Lion Air initial Max crash. But effectively one death per day thus far throughout 2019. But by Christmas.....
lynx318
lynx318 1
Should check out the stats on road deaths in China then...
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/1952218/traffics-toll-road-accidents-kill-700-people-day-china
Although any death is terrible, airline flight is still a safe way to travel.
dlaz0
Dennis Laskowsky 0
Ones chances of getting hit by lighting are 10 times greater than getting shot in a mass shooting in the US, Fact gun violence in the US as a whole has decreased by 50% since 1980. Cars kill folks at a higher rate than guns and Opioids at a 100 times that rate. All depends on what your agenda is on what you push.

Real 737 known facts yes Boeing screwed up by not understanding that when the Angle of Attack indicators do not agree and the flaps are retracted and the autopilot is not engaged the MCAS will push the nose over to prevent a stall and will do so until shut down. MCAS was intended to be a safety system that did not have an out unless you shut down the auto trim and the speed was with in limits so you can use the manual trim wheel. Which the pilots did do but then turned it back on. Was the training inadequate absolutely. It took me 200 hours of flight instruction to get my private pilot, instrument and complex aircraft licenses/certifications. I certainly am not qualified to fly a 737 of any type. The 1st officer only had 250 hours and he had an Air Transport Pilots License which in the US would take an average of 350 hours for a multi engine jet aircraft. You would also need 1500 hours to get hired by an airlines. Confirmed causes for the 2nd crash. The Boeing software did not compensate for AOA sensors that did not agree, the planes airspeed was excessively high and over recommended max speed, the pilots turned off the auto trim but turned it back in which doomed the flight, Contributing issues the captain in many foreign airlines has sole control of the aircraft so no team work or shared responsibilities, the second officer is responsible for all the paperwork unlike in the US where they share responsibilities. Just like in all the other things that take lives routinely, there are multiple contributors and no one cause or item is totally responsible. You have to solve all the contributing problems simultaneously or accidents will continue and deaths will continue to occur at lower rates until all the issues are resolved.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 1
Would love to find out where you got "Confirmed causes for the 2nd crash." I have read through the only report I have found so far, the prelim. report, 3x and find it very disturbing, not on the pilots but on the way the craft was acting, even with autopilot engaged. Auto trim was executed on after failure to manually move the trim wheels when it was switched off.
Plus the 1st officer had a CPL not a ATPL..he had 361 hrs and was on his way to getting his ATPL..from what I have read about getting a pilots licence over there, it is not a walk in the park at all...not like before.
Am I attempting to deflect any blame from the pilots..no, but at same time we were not in that cockpit and can only go by sounds and graphs. That and the new news out from Boeing about slat failures on B737NG and MAX.
mikehe
Dennis - I don't have an agenda; I was picking up on the Bill Babis comment about "if the CEO of every company..." post.

I am interested in your "ten times more likely to be hit by lightning" comment - which decade dod you source your stats from. I ask, because the US National Weather Service publication "Storm Data" recorded a total of 449 deaths from lightning strikes between 1998 and 2008. According to the National Weather Service, lightning causes an average of 62 deaths and 300 injuries in the United States each year.
samueldemars
Sam DeMars 5
Has anybody considered simply disabling this anti-stall system- permanently? I'm no pilot, but it seems like it wouldn't hurt for pilots to "regress" back a bit to piloting instead of increasingly becoming IT managers. When does automation go too far? It's when "safety" kills. Computers offer speed and convenience, but you shouldn't be compelled to use them for everything. They lack one essential characteristic: nuanced judgement based on experience. That characteristic is exactly what automated systems can strangulate when they fail. The "emergency backup" should be the pilot and not the computer.
mig82au
Michael Groszek 5
Unless some knowledgeable people are barking up the wrong tree, the plane is not airworthy without MCAS. It's a pitch stability enhancer, and not directly an anti stall system. It wouldn't be certified under part 25 without it.
JimG4170L
Jim Goldfuss 1
The plane is airworthy without MCAS. MCAS is only needed because at low speed, flaps up, autopilot off, the plane would pitch up with the application of power. Not dangerously so, but it did so very easily with little force required, which was different then other 737's - and Boeing needed it to handle like every other 737 so it could fall under the same type certification and not require extensive additional training. Take MCAS out, pilots need some sim training to see how the handling is different. The MAX is a stable platform - Boeing was trying to force a square peg in a round hole, even though there were square pegs available.
lynx318
lynx318 1
Removing MCAS and the need for extra training for the Max over standard 737's is what would void the certificate. This is why it was installed.
andreineptune
Andrei Neptune 3
Let's say your car naturally drifts to the right every time you accelerate. To compensate, the car automatically pulls to the left to keep a straight course. Sure it's possible that you can drive without the car automatically compensating for the drift, but it's much safer to just not drive the car until the issue is dealt with.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 4
Or, since we are taught to actually drive a car and use our eyes etc, design the car so it does not need the "automatic lane compensater", or don't bother putting it in, inform Joe driver the car may drift over, and to be vigilant of it may happen.
Even cars today are getting wayyy too automated.
samueldemars
Sam DeMars 2
Or don't put it in- exactly. I'd like to hear how many pilots would say that the lack of this anti-stall feature would have caused them to crash at any point in their careers. It might seem that the obsession with safety could reach a limit even with passenger air travel. Going back to the car analogy, one thing strikes me about the newer cars besides the abundance of features I don't need: there's a lot more things in them that can break or fail. How much feature management can be piled on a pilot- before the pilot fails?
JimG4170L
Jim Goldfuss 0
Its not an anti-stall program
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 1
Oh but it is...it was designed that if it noticed a pitch up attitude far greater than called for, it would force nose down to prevent a stall. That to me is an anti-stall program. See Boeing had to put it in to not have the jet completely re-certified as a standalone...they said to "mimic other 737's" and allow it to fly on same play field/certification.
samueldemars
Sam DeMars 1
What if the first time your car ever drifts to the right (and the system also fails), it's about to hit a bicyclist on the side of the road? You're not used to correcting the steering on your automated car. You frantically jerk the wheel to the left at the last nanosecond and drive into an oncoming truck. If you survived, would you then disable the automated steering correction?
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 2
My guess if you had to undergo re-current training every 6 months like pilots are required to, there would be far less vehicle accidents, bad/inattentive drivers would be removed from the road and those that developed the nasty habit of disregarding the rules would be required to redo their test for a license? Insurance rates would bottom out as well. I can pretty much guarantee that the majority of the drivers on the road do not read or understand their car owners manual. Let’s fail the power steering and power brake system and see how well everyone does? Same thing goes for hydraulically powered flight controls, try and control that four monstrosity in “manual reversion” Fly by wire not so much of a problem. A large Stabilizer at high speed with a little trim wheel attached to a cable.......you’d be working hard!
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 1
I don't know where you are, but here, those with the nasty habit of disregarding rules of the road do have to redo a test for their licence, and sometimes more than 1. And in my driver training, we actually were given instances of power steering and brake failure.
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 1
and I meant four engine,
lynwilliams
lyn williams -2
Andrei...thats a damned good analogy.

I feel...in my very bones...that this is some how related or caused by over regulation. If it wasn't...the FAA in their infinite 'wisdom' would have already squished the remaining life out of Boeing.
Lib4ever
Maxwell Johnson 3
(Aircraft enters an uncommanded nose down attitude and begins to accelerate.)
Pilot: "Every time I pull the nose up, the system pushes it down again."
FO: "Stab trim is ****ed up"
(Sound similar to throttles being retarded)
(Sound similar to engines spooling down)
(Sound similar to stab trim override switches being operated)
(Sound similar to throttles being advanced)
(Sound similar to engines spooling up)
Pilot on PA: "Sorry folks, hit a little pothole in the sky. Everything is fine."
Pilot: "They oughta fix that thing or disable it."
FO: "Yeah, they really should."
Pilot: "What do they have for lunch back there?"
FO: "Chicken or ham."

Several steps and spurious alarms omitted but you get the point.
liko2k
Jakub Bialek 5
I really don't understand how Boeing can still manage to remain afloat on the market (almost no impact on the share prices after effectively killing 300 people in a period of several months), while Tesla is slammed for every little tweet Elon posts or an intermittent problem this developing car company may have. This is ridiculous!
ghstark
Greg S 3
Why? Boeing is looking good financially. It has a strong order book, an excellent track record, and outstanding products. And they have a plan to fix the 737MAX. We'll see if that plan is any good, and if it is accepted by regulators around the world, and so on.
sfoltzpdx
Stephen Foltz 1
Just read the history of the Douglas Aircraft company to see how quickly a company can destroy itself. And it wouldn't hurt to check out all the issues Boeing has with the Dreamliner and poorly trained workers and supervision in S. Carolina (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/comment/Boeing-787-Dreamliner-a-timeline-of-problems).
FAwareM
FAwareM 1
Careful, that kind of logical, concise, and accurate comment could result in a veritable firestorm of negative responses in this type of thread.
Cansojr
Cansojr -2
Boeing or criminally responsible for 346 lives because they put a product on the market that wasn't tested adequately. That could have put are necks in Boeing's lethal aircraft was not tested rigerously. Sadly this was not the case.
lynwilliams
lyn williams 1
So you would want exactly what company to replace Boeing here in the US?
lettini
Lois Lettini -1
SO!! They do not have to be accountable BECAUSE they are irreplaceable? That certainly doesn't make me feel safe flying on any Boeing aircraft!
lynwilliams
lyn williams 3
Didn't say that at all! My point is exactly the opposite. With the company being here in the US they are subject to our laws...and have product liability. How much do you think say Airbus would have? Or Fokker? What possibility would there be of actually getting the problem fixed...which should be the real goal.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 3
So because Boeing is a US company and Airbus et all European companies, Boeing is safer because of US laws?? Basically you are saying any aircraft company, not being of US origin, has less product liability. WOW
lettini
Lois Lettini 1
If you really believe Boeing is safer because of US laws, then I have a bridge I want to sell you.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 2
Exactly...although I think your reply should have been to lyn.
mikehe
Sorry, but right now "If it says Boeing, I ain't goin' - to paraphrase an earlier bit of American jingoism.
steerts
Now that paraphrasing is in the picture, may I say :If it says Mike, I'm taking a hike"?
mikehe
Enjoy your journey! I do appreciate the humorous intent.
lynx318
lynx318 0
The answer is possibly in your comment, Tesla the 'developing car company' as opposed to well established company, Boeing. Shareholders see danger in a young company's teething problems first and foremost, then looks at other aspects.
liko2k
Jakub Bialek 0
The problem for Tesla is the "shorts" idiots. But for Boeing, it should be much more punishing than it actually is. Seems like a powerful governmental lobby behind this.
ghstark
Greg S 2
Oh no, a government conspiracy to keep Boeing afloat!
sunseeker34
sunseeker34 -2
uhm..Tesla has also killed a few people with their so called 'auto pilot'. The fact that Boeing withheld critical information about MCAS from pilots should be grounds for criminal charges.
steerts
Ron Streetenberger -1
If you happen to know how flight control surfaces work, you just might be a good pilot who can think through a situation. If all you know is "push for down and pull for up" you should change your career path.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 3
If you happen to know how control surfaces work, you would not need MCAS. And you would design a craft that did not need it either!
mikehe
So sad. Pointing up the fact that in any war (or words or other), "truth is the first casualty".
If I had experienced an airliner suddenly performing "uncommanded aerobatics" under me, I would, likewise, be screaming the house down.

However, to have software detecting an "AOA disagree" in ALL of the MAX software configs, but to make the "show this disagree to the driver" function only available as an "optional extra-cost" item, is going to cost Boeing big. For once, the US "ambulance-chasing" lawyers have my support!
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 1
I believe the disagreement annunciator was included with the Angle of Attack display option which if ordered would have shown on the upper right portion of the flight displays? Most legacy carriers ordered this option but sadly some Low Cost Carriers did not, either by choice or because the leasing company wanted to maximize profits and cheaped out when the aircraft were ordered?
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 3
Ummm...think you best go back and see how all this played out...Southwest, for instance, had no indication it was an "option" as they too were under the impression it was standard equipment, much the same as the 737NG. Those lights and indicators, since they are part of a major control system, should have been mandatory! A vehicle on the road MUST have a working ABS malfunction indicator light, if equipped with ABS brakes, a brake system malfunction light (low pressure etc), an electronic steering malfunction indicator light, if equipped with electric assist steering, an airbag system malfunction indicator, if equipped with an airbag system etc. If you lose power steering in a hydraulic operated unit, most times it is due to a blown belt and most times the "battery" light will come on as the alternator is also not working.
"After the October crash, Boeing told Southwest that the so-called disagree light only worked if customers bought an additional angle-of-attack indicator display. That wasn’t the case on the previous NG variant of 737s. The Max entered commercial service in May 2017.
"The manual documentation presented by Boeing at Max entry into service indicated the AOA disagree light functioned on the aircraft, similar to how it works on our NG series.”
"After discussing the matter with Boeing, Southwest opted to add the angle-of-attack indicator to the primary flight display of its Max fleet, which resulted in the disagree lights also being activated."
ajmilan
ajmilan 1
"A vehicle on the road MUST have a working ABS malfunction indicator light, if equipped with ABS brakes, a brake system malfunction light (low pressure etc), an electronic steering malfunction indicator light, if equipped with electric assist steering, an airbag system malfunction indicator, if equipped with an airbag system etc". These are mandatory - why? Because they are required by the auto manufacturing government entity in the US. The FAA did not mandate similar electronic assistance warning equipment in aircraft in the US. Does this mean the culpability lies with the FAA?
Highflyer1950
Highflyer1950 1
Well if they thought they had the light and flight display indicators why didn’t some smart SW pilot pick up on the fact it didn’t test?
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 1
If they even do test..remember it's an option.
watersw1
Bill Waters 0
If you have the option, learn your aircraft and how it responds under all conditions.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 1
Boeing didn't even know how it responds under all conditions..as I said to Highflyer, those indicators were an option so who knows..perhaps no bulb test was done.
PDLanum
Philip Lanum 1
Having two functional AoA sensors should be included in the MEL. Either sensor is not working - the plane is not allowed to fly.
bbabis
Bill Babis 1
Easy to say but that doesn’t work. No airline wants to double the chance of grounding an aircraft. If it can’t be MELd they’ll opt for the single system.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve -1
No they won't because that is what started this whole mess in the first place! 1 operational sensor. If either of the sensors are inoperable after takeoff, MCAS should disconnected from the system, and an alert issued. If either sensor malfunctions before takeoff, then it should be fixed and tested before next flight.
With your idea, Boeing may as well just leave the whole mess the way it is.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 3
I am not going to jump to anything right now...not after doing a bit of "research" this past day. Let us just say, I trust this news article, and all the other copycat articles about Ethiopian Airlines pilot "Canadian citizen" Bernd Kai von Hoesslin, about as far as I could toss a truck.
lynx318
lynx318 1
It does feel biased. No real mention of what was in Ethiopian's return emails.
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 5
What's funny is I got down voted for being suspicious of a "Bloomberg" article because that pilot's name stood out...this Bernd isn't Canadian, he's German, and up until March 2018 worked for Jet Airways, but was fired. Now I trust this article even less!! And no I am not defending the Ethjiopian pilots. Mistakes were made, as is the case with all humans, but at same time they are no longer here to defend themselves and a news article like this is just wrong.
aviacrews
Robert Allen 4
It’s common knowledge in the expat pilot world that you will be punished or fired for questioning a supervisor or airline procedure. This pilot being fired or resigning does not surprise me one bit. Talk to any pilot who has done a contract or two overseas and you will think twice about what airline you fly on.
lynx318
lynx318 2
I'm gonna play 'watch this space' as it seems Ethiopian Air is going after Bernie.
Ethiopian's response... https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/05/29/21/14117336-7083807-image-a-25_1559160213398.jpg
...In this article....https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7083807/Ethiopian-Airlines-pilot-warned-bosses-fears-Boeing-737-MAX-crash-killed-157.html
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 2
Not so much going after "Bernie" as they are going after the news article
rapidwolve
rapidwolve 1
I do know a few overseas pilots, and they too are questioning this "article". Yes some airlines would fire for questioning a supervisor (happens in NA and Europe as well with non expat pilots), but this "Bernie" is not Canadian as Bloomberg suggests, AP's wording is very very similar to that of Bloomberg's etc. That and his Jet Airways firing for "insubordination" etc., makes me wonder credibility of this whole article.
ghstark
Greg S 1
Which agencies are investigating this crash? Will the NTSB do their own report?
JimG4170L
Jim Goldfuss 1
NTSB will always present their own report. They are not the regulatory agency and can only make recommendations. It is up to the FAA to implement.
RexBentley
Rex Bentley 1
Get away from these Rube Goldberg flying machines. Seems silly to have so many systems that can fail, just to move a flight control surface a few degrees one way or the other. Pilots learn about stalls and how to recognize and avoid or how to get out of it when it happens from the first hour of flight training.
chalet
chalet 1
Does anyone know exactly what did an Ethiopian pilot who was traveling as a passenger, rushed inside the cockpit of a Max 8 when a sure sign that something was wrong (MCAS) erupted. This happened one day prior to the accident and saved the lives of crew, passengers and his own. Did he get to study MCAS in detail out of his own curiosity or was he suggested those actions by whom and when. Too bad that this was not disseminated at all.

rapidwolve
rapidwolve 8
He was in the jumpseat and it was Lion Air..like you said, his being there prevented a tragedy the day before it would happen..extra hands and eyes do help, so whether he was trained, or was in the mix with them but keeping calmer heads and eyes saw the issue, who knows.
PDLanum
Philip Lanum 1
The next question is, why was the AoA failure not reported to maintenance and labeled to such a degree that it must be repaired/replaced. That little tidbit of information would be relayed to Boeing under the current system of fault reporting back to Boeing. (I used to work in the group that maintained the database on part failures for the Boeing Commercial Jetfleet) If there was a problem with a certain model/vendor/product run on the AoA sensors - Boeing knows about it. It appears that Boeing dropped the ball here - bigly.
As I stated above, the AoA sensors should be added to the MEL. No function - no flight.
JimG4170L
Jim Goldfuss 1
My understanding is that it was reported, and it was repaired according to Boeing manuals. With LION Air, little was known about MCAS and it was not mentioned in most manuals. Before learning that, I weas under same assumption as you.
LeanderWilliams
Leander Williams 1
Do we think that pilots have become SO dependent on automated avionics that they no longer know how to override the same technology when there is a glitch? I have heard conspiracy theories that terrorists are now armed with technology to hack into airplane computers. While highly improbable, I wouldn't rule any possibilities out.
steerts
It is obvious that the guy in the jump seat and the guy in the left seat were occupying each others rightful positions.
LeanderWilliams
Leander Williams 1
Were I the CEO of an airline, I think I would want to order the 737 Max now, more than ever. The reason? By the time Boeing redesigned the system; there won't be a safer plane in the skies. Boeing sold the first plane to United in 1928. We all know that Boeing builds quality planes. Unfortunately, after 90 years of existence, there are bound to be a few problems. The downside of airplane manufacturers; theirs usually cost lives. I remember any number of crashes that have resulted in redesigns of planes. The DC-10 and its' cargo doors. The fuel systems on the 747 after TWA 800. I would certainly not hesitate to take a flight on the re engineered 737 Max.
lynx318
lynx318 -1
They'll also have a bunch of unfinished or undelivered Max's in the factory from cancelled orders. Should be able to pick up a bargain!
LeanderWilliams
Leander Williams 2
I wonder if those will be the first ones to be re engineered and tested. You're right.. Boeing will probably drop the price to almost a steal, while still clearing a minimal profit.
Greg77FA
Greg77FA 1
Very sad training was denied. And while CEO says he'd put family on 737MAX, would he have done so right after the Lion Air crash? Doubt it.
watersw1
Bill Waters 1
First and foremost pilots need to KNOW their aircraft and KNOW how to fly the aircraft the old fashioned way.........hands on!
bbabis
Bill Babis 0
We'll see how this plays out but it seems that Ethiopian Air fired their one guy who had any professional sense and ability.
roncklein
Ron Klein 0
No special training needed for a runway trim, disable trim motor, trim manually and land. Ron Klein
JimG4170L
Jim Goldfuss 2
MCAS made this procedure inaccurate. The stabilator was moving more than pilots realized and continually activated. Not so easy
mwbulli
M Bullington 0
What is a "short idiot?" Do you think there should be no opportunity for an investor to" put there money where there mouth is" if that investor thinks the stock is undervalued?
Do you propose only a market to invest if the investor thinks the stock is set up to appreciate?
Tesla set themselves up for short idiots by overstating their capabilities. Put another way, by lying to their shareholders.
ccpmlpts
James Claypoole 0
In non-MCAS aircraft, what would cause runaway stabilizer trim? A sticking electric trim switch? Something else? Sounds like as infrequently as these conditions may occur, they are anticipated by the existence of a “runaway stabilizer trim checklist.”

Have engineering solutions to these conditions been attempted? Would they have been useful in mitigating the MCAS difficulties?
JimG4170L
Jim Goldfuss 1
They are currently looking at these procedures again to see if they need to be updated. Most training ends at "disable the STAB Trim". They don't go further and have a pilot fly a mis-trimmed plane through the event and land using manual trim.

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